Professional Auction Script Software by PHP Pro Bid
Professional Auction Script Software by PHP Pro Bid

05 Dec. 2008
  MEMBERS AREA []
  Categories []

Back to home page
Main Category: ANTIQUE GUNS
  As used by Sherlock Holmes…? Auction ID: 222652  
Bidder or seller of this item?
Sign in for your status
Print View Watch this Item Send this Auction to a Friend    

As used by Sherlock Holmes…?

You must be registered in order to be able to bid.

Current Bid 350.00 GBP
Start Bid 199.00 GBP [ Convert ]
Quantity 1
# Bids 10 [ view history ]
Location GENTLY RAINING, ROCHDALE
Country United Kingdom
Time Left Closed
Start Time 25 Apr. 2008 18:30:00
End Time 09 May. 2008 18:30:00
Status Closed
Winner(s) 350.00 GBP - frank222 (21) Verified Seller
The auction is being watched by 2 users
Seller Information
KIRIMON (54) Verified Seller
Registered since 01 Jan. 2005
in United Kingdom
Other items from this seller
Reputation Rating 100.00%
54
0
0
0
0
View Reputation

Description

As used by Sherlock Holmes…?

© KIRIMON APRIL 2008

‘Salon’ – ‘Saloon’ or ‘gallery’ pistols were play things of the rich in the 19th century, particularly on the continent. They used them to practice their marksmanship indoors without creating damage, mayhem and havoc. The heyday of these indoor firearms commenced when the ‘Flobert’ cartridge was developed by Louis Nicolas Auguste Flobert, in Paris around 1845. Its design being based essentially on a round lead ball inserted into a percussion cap. He also invented a simple breach action for these weak proto Rimfire rounds, in these sleek - usually smooth bored - pistols.

The Flobert cartridge provided the inspiration for Daniel Wesson when he developed his No. 1 pistol cartridge in 1858, referred to eventually by its more recognizable name – ‘Rimfire’. Wesson added the distinct rim which became the accepted norm for all metallic cartridges that followed.

So, – it seems quite straightforward that the pistol for sale here today (See Pics) is an indoor target type as loosely described above – except…

It does not look continental…. In fact, it looks decidedly English – at least to my eye. It seems devoid of any proof or maker’s marks – save for:

SV on the frame under the (very English looking!) grips.

F H or inverted L H stamped into base of grips.

Serial number 9?9? stamped on frame.

Proof marks may have existed – and been worn away – English proofs especially can be very small indeed – or lost in the one area of black powder corrosion/repair at the breach below the barrel. See pics.

After several deep sessions in my reference books and some in-depth surfing of the net came the first clue - in a paper written in the late 1990’s about Victorian firearms as mentioned in Conan Doyle’s books. This was penned by an obvious Sherlock Holmes enthusiast - Mr Berg - who is also a Forensic Firearms Consultant in Minnesota!

A copy of part of Mr Berg’s paper in included in the sale. It makes the following reference and includes a picture of:

‘Webley Model 1880 single shot target pistol.’

This pistol was introduced by Webley in 1880. This pistol was a single shot, single action, tip-up, breech loading Target or Saloon pistol. It was made in various Rimfire calibres as well as the .297/230 Morris center fire cartridge amongst others. The book“Webley Revolvers” by Bruce and Reinhart describes and illustrates this pistol.

“To load and eject, the breech end of the barrel is tipped up by operating a trigger like lever situated in front of the guard… Although produced by Webley, these saloon or target pistols followed the Continental design….
These pistols, weighing from 1 to 3 lbs., were very popular during the latter part of the 19th century when shooting galleries were more popular than they are today…With the short ranges available in shooting galleries or saloon, these weapons were ideal. They were easily loaded and nicely balanced.”

Note: The time period of the Webley Model 1880 single shot target pistol fits perfectly into the time slot for this published article.’

My thanks and acknowledgements for the above extract to Mr. Berg, who concludes that this type of gun was the probable pistol of choice for Holmes’s indoor target shooting…

References: Musgrave Ritual published in 1893 refers to Holmes and his "hair trigger pistol" that he used for indoor target practice on the walls of his room...

Further research has turned up one similar single shot target pistol in the excellent R E M E Museum of Technology Weapons collection. Weapon No 221’ interestingly is also unmarked’

So - possibly this gun also is of Webley manufacture, since it was not until 1889 that Webley started to trademark all their products. Before this, they often sold unmarked revolvers etc, to the gun trade – the retailer could if he then wished, put his own name upon the piece.

A final comment on the markings on the frame and grips – these are very ‘Belgian’ to me – and I believe Webley did sub-contract to Belgian manufacturers in the early 1880’s – particularly the Union des Fabricants d'Armes de Liege, but I am sure there would have been others.

My knowledge of Webley is only general, it would be nice if any Webley enthusiasts/ specialists out there can shed any more light on this. My particular question to them would be - is this the earliest purpose built Webley target pistol – or was there another before 1880? All information gratefully received!

This pistol is in very good order – everything works as it should and the barrel locks up tight. Condition is very good, as you can see I hope from the photographs. You will note from the hammer that this pistol is chambered for a Rimfire cartridge. Specifically this is the .297 British Revolver RF/aka the short RF .297. This cartridge is of British origin, and came into general use about 1860 and was widely used in Webley pistols and revolvers. This is an obsolete calibre as recognised by UK law, and no licence or permit is required as long as it is held as a curiosity or ornament.

Any questions gladly answered, and any information to add to or correct the above will be gratefully received and acknowledged!

As always – no reserve.

Please add £10 for P&P Inc insurance.

© KIRIMON APRIL 2008



On 05 May. 2008 14:06:52, the following description has been added:

My thanks to Gundeals member 'Waterloo' who has the exact same gun but with "Qrlando Smith, Derby" along the top of the barrel (he was a gunsmith in Derby) Apperenlty there is a picture of the same gun in the small "Observer book of guns" with yet another "maker" listed. This fits with Webley supplying to the gun trade.
Kirimon


On 06 May. 2008 13:25:26, the following description has been added:

My thanks also to 'Dodger444' who has a deactivated pistol with a barrel address of 'SHREWSBURY'
Kirimon
Auction Images
Select a picture

View Full Size Images
As used by Sherlock Holmes…?
Item viewed 953 times
Ask Seller a Question
Please login in order to ask the seller a question.
Offline Payment
Bank Transfer
Bank Transfer
Cheque
Cheque
Postal Order
Postal Order
Shipping
Shipping Conditions Buyer pays for shipping expenses
Postage 10.00 GBP
Insurance -
Shipping Method Special Delivery UK
Shipping & Payment Details Insurance included in shipping cost.

The poster, KIRIMON, assumes all responsibility for the contents of this listing

Bid on this Item
As used by Sherlock Holmes…?

You must be registered in order to be able to bid.

RUBY Fibre Optic Shotgun Sights - BUY ONLINR
Copyright ©2008 PHP Pro Software LTD. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners.
Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of the Gun Deals TERMS & CONDITIONS
Page loaded in 2.271038 seconds